Curse

JASON626 · Aug 03, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

shawdow form on a perma is worse than ursan ever was.

people/game were fine b4 permas they'll be fine after. Its just now we have people who are spoiled with how easy it is for perma to do anything.

Bug John · Aug 03, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASON626

shawdow form on a perma is worse than ursan ever was.

people/game were fine b4 permas they'll be fine after. Its just now we have people who are spoiled with how easy it is for perma to do anything.

rofl

When I read people like you, I realize it's just no use...

The ursan reference made my day, could you please enlighten me and explain me what makes the ursan nerf a good nerf ?

Miss Puddles · Aug 03, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

How can they complain about people finishing things in a fraction of the time it used to take when they designed a lot of new equipment and skills specifically to make the players faster, more powerful and more damage resistant?

This.
SF was around way before cons, but gimmick builds have been, and always will be, part of the meta. What will it be next, I wonder?

Lishy · Aug 03, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

If A/E and cons are nerfed, we will just go back to A/Me permasin and 600/smite speedclears.

Only reason we couldn't permasin back then is because it wasn't a trend. But there sure were uwsc from very few elite players

Hell, you can already run uw in 40 mins. Imagine a team.

refer · Aug 03, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Can't we just equip monsters with at least ONE enchantment removal skill say, Signet of Disenchantment for the SF crowd?

Athrun Feya · Aug 03, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Nerfing SF won't stop the speed clears. I've wrote this so many times in so many places about so many different skills (CoP, RoJ..etc) and up to now have been right. The Deep HM was finished in 18 minutes without PvE skills, SF or 600/smite - with a bit of organisation really anything can counter terriblemonster and level design.

If you break elite areas down in to the very minimum that needs to be killed to continue, it is no surprise fast teams are, well, fast. By way of example, in the Deep everything in the first set of rooms (4) and the large room afterwards must be killed, then all the outcast in the first depletion aspect, then the oni in scorpion aspect and end kanaxai. Yes that really is it - 8 groups.

For the record, ANet were not trying to stamp out speed clears completely, just commented that they had become fast enough to actually draw some skill-balance attention

Lishy · Aug 03, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Remove holy dmg from aohm to slow pits, add another touch skill to blacknesses, buff tactics so aatxes cause energy problems with their skills, buff zealot's fire to make wastes harder, and give wastes enemies the signet that disables your elite.

Problem solved without nuking uwsc.

FengShuiDove · Aug 03, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Someone stated earlier in the thread that randomizing spawns around the entire instance would be a good solution.

I totally agree.

It means that an extra several minutes go into scouting out each area and finding what's there. It doesn't hinder teams at all, since their plan of attack will hinge upon the mobs, not the location of said mobs. Of course, this is without a doubt beyond the scope of the update programming capabilities as they currently are, but it's a good idea nonetheless. Also makes for more dynamic gameplay.

Avarre · Aug 04, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

In fact, all of his points are extreme, but valid.

I like to see you guys "discrediting" others opinions, but never being able to answer simple questions.

Here's one for you, simple enough: what exact influence do speed clear builds have on your gameplay ? (I'm expecting the usual failing arguments here, I wish you could surprise me this time.)

His points aren't valid, and I'll answer your simple question to explain why.

From a player's perspective, making things easier is always going to make them happy. From RMT to mods to UWSC, players like to have things given to them quicker and easier. That doesn't affect my gameplay at all.

However, I'm not even talking from a player's perspective, I'm talking from an overall design perspective. A solid game with high replayability does not benefit from making the game shallower/easier, nor does the developer doing it inspire trust in future developments. It simply shows lazy game design and poor judgment for the long run, at the expense of short-term profit/player fun.

The 'doesn't affect your gameplay' argument simply isn't valid when talking about game design and no longer needs an explanation every time someone throws it out.

R_Frost · Aug 04, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

A nerf isn't needed; a change in functionality is needed. This skill is broken and it should have been adressed a long time ago. If a skill is abused in farming builds and ignored everywhere else, it needs a change. A nerf to recharge will nerf farming builds (

), but it will also make this skill unusable (

).

Some genius needs to come up with a new Shadow Form.

If the only fun you find in GW is running around saying, "lol im invicible lol," then you should probably quit.

nah ive yet to actually do a speed clear. ive watched my son do it a bunch, he got a set of FoW armor and hasnt done it since. i also didnt get caught up with Ursan when that was the flavor of the month or how ever long it lasted. im working on my own personal goal right now before GW2 comes out, if it ever does. yeah the UW use to be or still is considered an elite area but the only thing anyone is after in there is ecto and the eternal blade? the rest of the drops stink, or have as the guild wars franchise grew. same with FoW, other the the satisfaction of clearing it and getting shards for your armor what the point of doing it over and over. for some triple req drop from a chest? i enjoyed doing the 600/smite runs there back before the spirit bond nerf that was said to be due to PvP. well they split PvP and PvE skills, yet spirit bond never got un-nerfed.

Kendel · Aug 04, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Remove holy dmg from aohm to slow pits, add another touch skill to blacknesses, buff tactics so aatxes cause energy problems with their skills, buff zealot's fire to make wastes harder, and give wastes enemies the signet that disables your elite.

Problem solved without nuking uwsc.

So.. making changes that are almost certainly not going to dent the speed of the speed clear, but help to screw over everyone else is perfectly fine?

Do you expect me to believe you aren't 1 of these noobs who doesn't want his precious UWSC taken away and is prepared to go to any lengths to avoid it?

Avarre just said it. Shadow Form in general is a sign of utterly pathetic game design choices. Ursan was bad enough, but Permasins are just ridiculous. Any competant game designer should've seen what Permasins would do to the game and removed it, but no, Anet not only allowed it, they un-nerfed it! Why should i have any faith in future products when they've made such a crap job of this 1 in its later years? Ever since EotN was released they've gone from 1 bad decision to the next, 1 delayed update to the next. I honestly don't care if the people who do UWSC quit when it gets nerfed, wtf were they bringing to the game?

Arkantos · Aug 04, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Remove holy dmg from aohm to slow pits, add another touch skill to blacknesses, buff tactics so aatxes cause energy problems with their skills, buff zealot's fire to make wastes harder, and give wastes enemies the signet that disables your elite.

Problem solved without nuking uwsc.

Problem solved, or did you just create a bigger problem?

Nerfing AoHM is going to slow down pits, sure. But why should dervishes (who are already very weak compared to warriors and assassins) take a nerf because of it? Oh right, they shouldn't.

By aatxes, I'm assuming you mean graspings, because they have fear me. A buff isn't going to make a big difference, unless you make it overpowered. If you do, then you're just going to screw up other groups simply because of this. Again, not needed.

Buff zealots? Again, not going to make a big difference.

Give enemies signet of humility? Sure, it's going to disable shadow form. But then again, you're screwing over every other group. Every mesmer enemy in the UW comes in fairly big numbers. Why would you make it so it's possible for all of your parties elite skills disabled?

On another note, you people need to realize the difference between wanting to nerf shadow form and wanting to nerf speed clears. No, nerfing shadow form isn't going to stop speed clears. But that's not the ultimate reasoning behind the nerf. Having a skill that allows you to be indefinitely invincible to most enemies in PvE is just a dumb skill to have in a game. It's a very poor game design choice, as Kendel said. It's a very pathetic design. A skill that allows you to be invincible is a skill that doesn't belong in an online game. Go play single player games with cheats if you want god mode.

Speed clears need a nerf. Not just builds, but the design of some areas. Being able to split your party up and do an area quicker is a good tactic, but when it comes to the point where single players can solo dozens of enemies and complete the objectives in that area of the map is another very poor game design.

Shadow form needs a nerf. Being invincible does not belong in Guild Wars. You know there's a huge problem when 2 assassins can clear the UW in HM in ~30 minutes. Speed clears need to be stopped. Being able to complete elite areas in under 20 minutes is absolutely ridiculous.

upier · Aug 04, 2009, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

His points aren't valid, and I'll answer your simple question to explain why.

From a player's perspective, making things easier is always going to make them happy. From RMT to mods to UWSC, players like to have things given to them quicker and easier. That doesn't affect my gameplay at all.

However, I'm not even talking from a player's perspective, I'm talking from an overall design perspective. A solid game with high replayability does not benefit from making the game shallower/easier, nor does the developer doing it inspire trust in future developments. It simply shows lazy game design and poor judgment for the long run, at the expense of short-term profit/player fun.

The 'doesn't affect your gameplay' argument simply isn't valid when talking about game design and no longer needs an explanation every time someone throws it out.

I would argue that GW in it's current state would lose replayability by nerfing SCs.
Because there are simply too many things wrong with the game and a singular patch, rather than a complete overhaul of the game, done in A.Net's fashion would just hurt the game more.

So while DLI,DUI isn't a good idea when we are dealing with a game developer that has the resources to completely rework the game, this description does not apply to A.Net at this time.
I think GW is in a phase where providing fixes isn't a viable option, but providing simple counters is. And SCs are one of those counters.

persuadu · Aug 04, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Its amazing how much this looks like the Ursan Thread right before Anet nerfed that. Personally I think they should bring Ursan back to what it was, then at least the playing field would be more level, i.e. everyone would have access to an overpowered skill instead of just Assasins running permaform. But getting rid of SF would definately level things across the classes as well.

Fire Turok · Aug 04, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

how about this,

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT nerf and NOT make us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve to right to do whatever we desire concerning skills on GW. Skill Updates= LAME.

Bug John · Aug 04, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

However, I'm not even talking from a player's perspective, I'm talking from an overall design perspective. A solid game with high replayability does not benefit from making the game shallower/easier, nor does the developer doing it inspire trust in future developments. It simply shows lazy game design and poor judgment for the long run, at the expense of short-term profit/player fun.

If only UW was an area you could enjoy doing more than once, but it is not.

GW high-end pve lacks difficulty (adding a mob of 50 lvl 30 monsters with monsters skills has never even been close to what "high end" should be), lacks proper rewards (that should not be turned into cash), and lacks repeatability.

UW and other high end pve instances are only good for farming, that's why I have absolutely no problem with people finding the best possible way to clear them.

BTW, do you realize that you're asking for nerfs in a five years old game ? What good could it possibly bring ?

If you were asking for structural changes in GW, it might be unrealistic, but it would be smarter, and maybe more useful if GW2 devs ever drop by the boards.

Is it that hard to understand that GW high end pve is limited to farming ?

Grj · Aug 04, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Avarre just said it. Shadow Form in general is a sign of utterly pathetic game design choices. Ursan was bad enough, but Permasins are just ridiculous. Any competant game designer should've seen what Permasins would do to the game and removed it, but no, Anet not only allowed it, they un-nerfed it! Why should i have any faith in future products when they've made such a crap job of this 1 in its later years? Ever since EotN was released they've gone from 1 bad decision to the next, 1 delayed update to the next. I honestly don't care if the people who do UWSC quit when it gets nerfed, wtf were they bringing to the game?

I'll try an knock the sarcasm on the head :P

The 55/600/smite build or insert any other unnerfed skill is a sign of bad game design.

Remember when this started to take off? Near everyone was trying it and the only limiting factor was getting the runes/ equipment as they where alot higher in price.

Running this build took little to no skill but it was an effective way to make money when ecto where 12-16k each...

I remember not being able to get groups as well as others, it was very differcult to for anything because everyone wanted to solo/duo. (sound familiar?)

Shame it taken things to get to Ursan/Shadow Form for people to speak out and say fix this, it should've been done back in the day when the 55/600/smite solo/duo was taking off but nobody said s**t. The few threads i did see on fourm's where laughed at, trolled, then usually locked.

Arkantos · Aug 04, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Turok

how about this,

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT nerf and NOT make us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve to right to do whatever we desire concerning skills on GW. Skill Updates= LAME.

You're right. I spent at least $200, I've spent 3,750 hours playing. I want my damn instant win button, ANet!

Now, on the flip side...

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT let PvE continue to be ridiculous and NOT continue making us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve the right to want some sort of balance. Skill Updates= GOOD.

rkubik · Aug 04, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Just heard a rumour in the GToB that they were going to buff the speed clears.

Spiritweaver · Aug 04, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Turok

how about this,

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT nerf and NOT make us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve to right to do whatever we desire concerning skills on GW. Skill Updates= LAME.

I've bought all the campaigns and the expansion. Aswell as some CE. I spent a good deal on the game too.

Do I not have the right to play a balanced game? One where all professions have an equal chance at doing a particular area?

The only lame skill update was the one that un-nerfed Shadow Form in the first place.